Competent and incompetent sellers
Call to
architectural office:
— Could you please tell me how much it costs to design a three-story house?
— I can’t just answer that question like that!
— Why?
— Well, I need to know what the house will be made of, its area, layout, the condition of the soil and groundwater, the purpose of the construction: whether it’s a residential building or not, and if it’s not residential, for what specific purposes: production, storage, office, hotel, or restaurant. It’s also important for me to know how many people will be in the building at the same time on average for planning the restrooms and fire exits…
“Things seem a bit complicated on your end… Could you pass the phone to someone from the sales department?”
How often do you hear an oxymoron like “She is a good specialist because she has been sitting in one place for 8 years”? лет. “Isn’t it true that, in reality, we’re probably talking about the ‘Elusive Joe,’ who is only elusive because no one is chasing after him? So, is she a good specialist?”
No matter which businessman or recruiter I talk to, there is always the opinion that “experience in the industry is absolutely essential.” If experience in the industry is so crucial, it seems we are talking about people whose other talents can be overlooked. I once saw a job advertisement that read: “Sales specialist needed for oil paints. Specialization: Black and white paints.” (It’s true!) Apparently, we are talking about lower-level employees who can easily be blamed for not meeting targets and who don’t really have any significant skills.
This is often how people view salespeople. It seems so natural that the more specialized a person’s skill, the more valuable they are considered. But who are salespeople? What do they actually know how to do? Strangely enough, the blame lies with the salespeople themselves. Those who enter the sales profession are often people who lack other skills. They see their job as a way to avoid real work. The very idea of being a salesperson as a career option sends a chill down the spine of any office worker, including recruiters, as if it were about selling flowers at a crosswalk or batteries in the subway. This situation prevents others, especially decision-makers, from taking true sales professionals seriously. After all, real professionals don’t see a difference in what they are selling: the product doesn’t matter, the market doesn’t matter. What matters are the skills to effectively manage the sales process, the ability to ask the right questions at the right time, the skills to build relationships, and the ability to understand, identify, and shape the buyer’s needs. However, who among those reading this article can confidently say they possess such skills? And who can confidently claim they can teach others these skills, organize the process, monitor it, evaluate the results, identify weaknesses, eliminate shortcomings, and so on? It turns out there is not much difference in the approach to hiring serious-level salespeople and hiring other high-class specialists: accountants, programmers, translators, and so on.
The main arguments for why work experience is so important are usually two:
· presence of clients
· product knowledge
Your clients
Businessmen often express a desire for a salesperson who already has a portfolio of clients or a manager with their own team. What do they really want? In reality, they are looking for a reliable solution to their problems. If we ask them directly why they need a manager with a portfolio, they will respond that it will significantly boost our sales, and they will be confident that they made the right choice. However, if you need reliability and confidence, then it’s anything but a person with a portfolio or a team.
A “portfolio” person will go wherever they can get paid more at the first opportunity, and it will be difficult to keep their clients. The previous employer couldn’t retain them, right? Moreover, this “portfolio” type will take with them everything they managed to develop at their current job and, if possible, will also take the client base. One more point: a “portfolio” salesperson is a utopia. In practice, successful transitions of good salespeople to another company, where a significant portion of their client portfolio is transferred, are quite rare. Why is that? Because the salesperson sells not only themselves but also the company and its advantages over competitors, and clients firmly believe in their choice. If the salesperson only sold themselves, they would simply stop working for anyone and start their own business. Why would they carry portfolios from one employer to another and lose some clients in the process when they could make clients exclusively theirs by selling both their professionalism and market knowledge—where the client would be better served next year or on their next purchase? If we do have examples of people migrating from employer to employer with their client portfolios, it’s unclear who is hiring whom and who depends on whom. In such cases, it’s likely that the salesperson acquires the necessary resources from the employer, such as an office and a name. The relationship, in this case, devolves into a franchise.
If we talk about a manager with a team, the situation is even worse. What do you think the reputation of such a manager would be at their previous job? And how would you feel when such a manager, along with their team, moves to a competitor? Moreover, teams like this often have a somewhat unprofessional trait – nepotism. People often follow their leader because they feel they have nothing to offer and fear being fired if their protector leaves. How insecure must a manager be to fear parting with their team? Why shouldn’t they have the strength and skills to hire professionals again? Is it really because last time they didn’t hire but brought in “their own,” and now there are simply no “own” left? And doesn’t it seem to you that such a manager with a team would be intimidated by the prospect of leading a new group? A true leader never drags anyone along with them. They respect people and give them the best choices. Once they have settled into a new job, they can talk to their former subordinates, again in terms of their interests and needs, rather than their own desires.
Thus, we have already understood that a person with a portfolio or a person with a team does not solve the employer’s problems and does not meet their needs.
Table of Contents
Product knowledge
Let’s look at a specific example. An advertising agency. While talking to the director of the advertising agency about where and how he searches for talent, he mentioned that the only source of recruitment was other advertising agencies. Moreover, among advertising agencies, there were mailing lists in which product suppliers for advertising promoted their services. So, the search for people was conducted by publishing job openings in these mailings. In our conversation, the director believed that this was the best and most effective method for finding new talent. After asking a series of guiding questions, I led the director to the conclusion that, at best, he would get a “person at the end of the conveyor,” and at worst, an outcast. Then we had the following dialogue:
— Sergey, tell me, what about those email newsletters where you find the best deals on acrylic or souvenirs? Have you considered using them to sell your company’s advertising services?
— Spam? No, it’s neither effective nor does it benefit the reputation. Moreover, the real needs of the client regarding advertising can only be determined through a personal meeting.
— Yes, you’re right. What do you think is more difficult for you, finding a client or finding an employee?
— Of course, a worker!
— And you need to somehow convince him to work for you?
— Yes…
— Essentially, how do you “sell” him the idea of working in your team?
— You’re right, it’s so difficult. People are generally not inclined to listen when they’re being convinced of something.
— So why did you decide that you could “sell” the idea of working for you through email newsletters to your competitors? Aren’t you essentially telling them that you have issues with your staff, instead of conveying that everyone is eager to join you?
— So how am I supposed to find good people then?
— Why did you decide that you need to look for talent in competing companies?
— Well, where else can you find people who know the product well?
— Excuse me, what is your educational background?
—I graduated from the Instrument Engineering Faculty of KPI, and then I ventured into business.
— Would you trust someone without a relevant education to lead a company like yours?
“You know, just a minute ago I would have said ‘no,’ but now I realize that among the advertising agencies operating in our city, there isn’t a single one led by someone with a relevant education. However, when it comes to managing a company, specific knowledge of the product isn’t that important!”
— Excuse me, but why does the seller need it?
— Well, of course! How can a person without knowledge of materials, manufacturing techniques, and the details of the production process communicate with a client? How can they address a client’s question about a specific advertising product without knowing our range?
— Do you have catalogs or samples?
— Of course, there is, but a fresh person might spend a week choosing from all the variety to find what will best satisfy the client!
— Why did you decide that the client is aware of or should be aware of the full range of your products? If they ordered a display rack for advertising brochures, then that’s what it is. The client doesn’t even have an idea of what it can be made of or how it can be constructed. If the client has seen something similar from competitors, they will just point and say, “I want this too.” Will you make it “this too”?
— Of course, we are an intermediary agency, which means we can offer everything that is available on the market.
— What if the client didn’t provide a precise specification?
— We’ll come up with the right solution ourselves and agree on a couple of different options with the client. After all, the client doesn’t even realize what options are possible!
So, it turns out that the job of a salesperson is not to memorize the catalog, but to understand what the client needs and to offer your company as the solution to their problems?
— And not just that!
— What else?
— Well, he should be able to schedule meetings with clients, negotiate at all levels, and “close” the client on the contract…
— So, everything that a qualified salesperson should be able to do?
— Yes!
— So, basically, does experience in the industry not matter?
— It seems so.
“Do you know what else I will tell you? A person from a different industry, who has been selling something else, has the opportunity to connect with people whose business cards he has saved in his cardholder, bringing you a completely fresh clientele, who are not yet tired of advertising agents and not satisfied with previous contracts.”
— You’re right, but how do we find such people then?
— We’ll talk about this in more detail, but definitely not in industry newsletters 🙂
— 🙂.
What else is bad about it? industry-specific Work experience? There is a saying “a full glass.” This refers to a person who cannot be taught anything new. Such individuals will not be open to new ideas; instead, they will try to apply their existing experience. Whether that experience is good or bad, we do not know. What we do know is that this person is outside the corporate culture of your company and inside the corporate culture of a competitor. If that competitor holds a weaker position in the market than you do, then an experienced person will only hinder you. If that competitor has a stronger position, then by hiring this specialist, you can only expect to achieve the same performance levels, but not to win in the competitive struggle.
Moreover, it often happens that there are moves accompanied by promotions. A junior specialist from Company A gets promoted to a senior specialist position in Company B. In this case, everyone in Company B is happy, but no one asks themselves why this specialist, if he is so talented, was not promoted at his previous job, where he was better known and his abilities could have been relied upon? Are you sure that you have recruited a truly qualified specialist and that the employer paid a fair price for him? In this case, it definitely makes sense to look at specialists of the same level but from different industries, offering them not just money, but an interesting, new job. Because interest and novelty are the factors that should attract real salespeople.
In breeding livestock, there is also an unpleasant phenomenon known as inbreeding. This occurs when close relatives are bred together, leading to the degeneration of the breed. Purebred animals suffer from a whole range of immune and hereditary diseases. The same will happen in our labor market. Each industry market is quite narrow. By hiring the same people from competing companies, we only worsen our own breed while clearly overpaying for the poaching. A good employer will always look for opportunities to refresh the talent pool. A fresh hire not only gains new opportunities for themselves but also brings new ideas, approaches, methods, and techniques to the stagnant industry environment.
One unpleasant phenomenon that should not be overlooked is corporate espionage. A manager will gladly go for a recruiting interview with competitors to… obtain insider information through well-phrased questions. This is a fantastic opportunity to learn all about sales volumes, key advantages, development prospects, the structure of the sales network, the problems the employer hopes to solve by hiring such a specialist, and so on. Meanwhile, the employer will think they are recruiting an excellent candidate.
As a final touch on whether in-depth product knowledge is important for clients, I will share a dialogue with a travel agent that took place when my young wife and I went to choose a tour for our honeymoon. We arrived at the agency with a clear understanding that we wanted to go to Spain. After a couple of guiding questions about what we expected from the trip, we were offered Crete as a more ideal place to fulfill our wishes. We went to Crete. We still haven’t had the chance to compare Crete and Spain, and we probably never will. If we do go to Spain, it won’t be a honeymoon anymore, and we will have completely different experiences. The most important thing is that we don’t regret that trip at all, and we remember every moment of it with special warmth, even though we stayed in a cheap hotel and not by the sea. Should the agent have known about the hotels available in Spain? – No. And not in Crete either. The agent simply knew that there was a good offer at a good price for a tour to Crete and knew how to communicate effectively with clients. That’s all.
Counting on relatives and close ones.
Often, when unable to quickly find reliable people and feeling desperate to lure talent away from competitors, a businessman may think that hiring close acquaintances protects him from dishonest behavior among employees. In reality, the opposite is true. If there is a need to rely on honesty, it means that the company’s processes are structured in a way that encourages dishonesty, corruption, and backstabbing. In such cases, familial ties become a significant hindrance. It is harder to fire such an employee, and they are aware of this. It is also difficult to motivate them; they either do not take their manager seriously or feel that expressing grievances towards their own people is inappropriate.
In a company where employees are hired through connections, a situation arises where the manager becomes unpleasantly dependent on subordinates, gets involved in internal intrigues and conflicts, starts working inefficiently, and ultimately fails to deliver results. If you are a foreman and your task is to ensure that the tiles in the client’s kitchen are laid perfectly, and if even one tile is laid crookedly, it should be replaced without argument, then under no circumstances should you hire relatives for such work. You won’t be able to manage the tiler if your relationship with him goes beyond a verbal contract for laying tiles in the bathroom.
What should a salesperson be like?
First and foremost, a seller must have the desire to constantly grow and do so in order to move along their “conveyor belt,” leading others and providing growth and potential for others as well.
We have already understood that the search for top-notch salespeople is a rather difficult process. This is exacerbated by the ridiculous stereotypes, as we have shown above, stemming from internal fears, the saturation of the market with incompetent salespeople from the “I can’t do anything else” category, and the lack of a clear tool for assessing a salesperson’s skills if you are not a higher-level salesperson yourself. However, to understand how salespeople are actually found, it is worth paying attention to the experiences of high-level salespeople in recruiting their subordinate sales staff. And it turns out that they:
– They do not emphasize industry experience. Moreover, for example, in the recruitment guide for insurance agents at a globally recognized insurance company, experience at another company is viewed as a negative characteristic. Indeed, if that experience is so valuable, then why did they leave?
- They assess a person’s level of internal motivation and enthusiasm. Salespeople describe it briefly: “the eyes are shining.”
- They assess determination, systematic work, and the ability to plan. This can be understood simply by asking how they organize their work or by inquiring which goal from the options provided they consider to be the right one. We discussed what constitutes the right goals in the section on motivation.
- They look for independence, self-confidence, and self-reliance. You can simply ask about the thesis topic in university. A competent person will remember it. An incompetent one will say they forgot.
- They pay attention to a broad outlook, curiosity, and open-mindedness, which can be revealed through simple questions about the outside world: why does the Moon shine, or why doesn’t a bicycle fall over when it’s moving? Even a simple question like, “What do you know about our company?” indicates the candidate’s level of curiosity—whether they took the time to search online before coming to the interview.
- They assess the ability to identify needs, which is reflected in the response to a request to sell something. A salesperson knows how to conduct a conversation, while a non-salesperson may become flustered or focus on features rather than benefits. They might also lecture instead of asking the right questions. A telling self-test question is, “Would I buy from them or not?”
- They determine a person’s success and talent, as well as their leadership qualities: who they were in the past, what achievements they have, what they take pride in, and how they envision themselves in the future.
- Sometimes they give homework assignments.
- They are developing a template for the interview protocol that includes key questions and their answers, so they can calmly evaluate and choose from several candidates after the interviews.
As you can see, everything is actually very simple and obvious. So, as it turns out after reading, everyone would act this way. A manager, especially one at a high level, must pay a lot of attention to recruiting, particularly recruiting for themselves, as a failure in choosing a candidate directly impacts the success of their own work.
Renting, like selling
However, despite what has been said above, it sometimes makes sense to poach people. There can be many reasons for this. Often, poaching is successful not necessarily because you want to lure someone away, but because the conditions in the competitor’s company have created a situation where you can offer something better than what people have in their current roles. When we talk about poaching, we set the following reasonable limitation: compensation and other material incentives for people at this level are generally the same and have been shaped by market mechanisms of supply and demand, meaning the market is stable rather than volatile. Moreover, we have already mentioned that money tends to demotivate rather than motivate, especially when it comes to solving problems that require creativity rather than simply implementing ready-made solutions.
So, the problem is as follows: there is a prince-on-a-white-horse working for a competitor, whom we need to lure away for our client. We have already confirmed that this competitor of our client is more successful in the area where we need to search for a candidate: they have better processes in place, more effectively organized sales, or their accounting operates clearly and without delays.
What do we need to do? First of all, it’s important to establish a friendship with such a person in advance. Moreover, it’s essential to engage closely within the circles of your business to know who is who, ask people for advice, and seek recommendations. Don’t hesitate to spend money on coffee and try to be genuinely helpful to these people. For example, occasionally provide them with free leads on potential clients that you’re not interested in for some reason. It won’t cost you much. If the friendship hasn’t been established yet, you should work on building it. This process will take at least a month, and you need to be prepared for that and not lose patience.
Having close contact with such a person or being recommended for a conversation, you need to find out what exactly our prince dislikes about the company he is currently working for. For this, you will need either a heart-to-heart talk with him, insider information, or simple press releases or business news, such as changes in the company’s board members or other internal movements you might have learned about. Surely, everyone has something that bothers them, something that scares them, something they lack confidence in, something they feel they can’t control, or where they don’t see their own growth. At times, perhaps once a quarter, they might really want to “turn around and leave.” Your task is to catch him at such a moment. Become a confidant for these people; know everything about them. Provide them with the service of listening to their problems. By understanding a person’s issues, you can, through probing and guiding questions, lead them to the realization that it’s time to change something in their life. For example, here’s a rough dialogue with such a prince, whom we can call Nikolai.
— Nikolai, by the way, what do you think of Kateryna’s work?
— Oh, it’s better not to ask…
— Yes, I’ve heard about the problems in her department too.
— Really? It seems this disgrace has already become known to those around us. Well, what can you do – you don’t always have the option to choose who you work with.
— Have you tried talking about this with the General?
— It’s pointless. She is either his godmother or his brother’s godmother—I didn’t get into the details.
— It’s an unenviable position, Nikolai. How do you think Katya’s inefficiency is affecting your work?
— It certainly does. We are all internal clients of each other, and if Katerina were just a little more proactive and effective in managing her team, I would have shown better results too.
— So, working in the same team with Katerina is harming your productivity?
— Yes…
— And, in the end, does your reputation as a successful manager suffer because of your forced inefficiency?
— You are right.
— If I remember correctly, you were hired through recruiters?
— Yes…
— Nikolai, if we look at the case with Katerina, it seems that business qualities in your company are less important than family ties. What do you think will happen to you if someone close to the General takes your position?
— Well, since he hasn’t been found yet, that’s why we decided to involve recruiters. Although you’re right – they’ll get rid of me.
— Does this give you confidence in tomorrow?
— No, of course not.
— So, it turns out that you are always at risk of ending up on the street, especially with not the best record on your resume, since you haven’t been effective enough. How long do you plan to search for a job, and do you have a backup plan?
— Well, we haven’t discussed the parachute yet…
— How do you see a way out of the current situation?
“I won’t be able to actively look for a job, as rumors will start circulating in the market, and for a manager at my level, that won’t lead to anything good…”
— You know, Nikolai, I think I can help you. We know each other well, and if I come across anything worthwhile for you, I’ll arrange a meeting right away. Does that sound good?
— You are simply my savior! Of course, I am at your service!
Naturally, you already had something in mind, but before suggesting it, you will continue the conversation with Nikolai to kindly find out about his dream job. Why? So that, having carefully remembered or even noted down Nikolai’s wishes, you can present him, at your next meeting, with a job at your company that aligns perfectly with his dream job.
What happened in the conversation between you and Nikolai? You acted like a professional salesperson who takes a small hint, expands it into a bigger issue, guides Nikolai towards the right solution, and positions yourself as the one fulfilling Nikolai’s needs rather than just asking for something.
How can you present a job to a candidate as their dream job? To illustrate this, let’s imagine a conversation during the hiring process for a completely new but clearly promising individual, which is why you’re investing your time in them. For the sake of complexity, let’s assume that there is no salary involved. The commission is substantial, but it needs to be earned; there are growth prospects, but they seem quite elusive. You expect that the candidate won’t last on the “assembly line” for even a year. An inexperienced manager might falter in this situation or, without asking the candidate what they are truly looking for, simply rattle off the advantages—both real and fabricated—describe the job characteristics a bit, and wait for the candidate’s agreement. The likelihood of success is close to zero. However, let’s say that not all is lost, and we will begin. Let’s assume the manager’s name is Valentina, and the new recruit’s name is Konstantin:
— Konstantin, before we talk about the job we want to offer you, I would like to learn a little about you, if that’s alright?
— Yes, please!
— Konstantin, could you please tell us what kind of job you are looking for?
—I am interested in an office job with a clear schedule and a reasonable salary.
— You are right, Konstantin. This is a good job. You mentioned that you are interested in the rate. Could you clarify what rate you have in mind?
— This is, first and foremost, stability and confidence in tomorrow!
— Maybe. Tell me, Konstantin, why did you leave your previous job?
— I didn’t even leave. We were fired. They made us sign a resignation letter “voluntarily” and sent us on our way. You know how it is, there’s a crisis right now.
— You’re right, the crisis has left many people without jobs. Did you have a position there?
— Yes…
— And did it help you with your stability when you were suddenly fired like that?
— No, not really.
— Thank you, I have one more question. Do you know what car your former boss drives?
— Yes, in a Camry.
It’s black, like that.
— What do you think, does someone pay him a salary?
— In what sense?
— So, does your former boss get a rate from someone?
— No, of course, he’s a businessman!
— Ah, what do you think, you say it’s a crisis, but has your boss stopped driving the Camry?
— Why should he stop? He drives just the same as he always has!
— So, it turns out that your boss has stability, but you don’t?
— So, it seems…
— And no one pays him the rate. Don’t you think that your boss bought your stability from you by paying you that rate?
— Hmm, that’s clever…
“Moreover, I will tell you that most of the people around you who consistently and reliably provide for themselves and their families never relied on a salary. This includes the tiler who laid the tiles in your bathroom, the taxi driver, the lawyer, the plumber, the furniture maker, and even the cigarette seller whose products you smoke. However, thank you for your response; I have another question for you:”
— Let’s go.
— Let’s say you have an important task, for example, you’re going to your best friend’s wedding and you need to buy a wedding gift. Will you go shopping yourself or ask someone for help?
— Of course, I’ll go myself!
“Did I understand correctly, Konstantin, that in important matters you tend to rely on yourself?”
— That’s right!
— Thank you. If I may ask one more question: Do you think your friends, your true friends, would want you to earn more?
— Of course!
— Did your former boss have a strong desire to give you a raise?
— Ha, of course not!
— So, it turns out that in this important matter for you, ensuring your stability, you relied not on yourself or your friends, but on a person who certainly cannot be called a friend and who paid you so little, as much as he could?
— It turns out that way.
— And you must have had overtime, right? Did you often stay late in the evenings?
— It used to happen…
— Did they pay you extra for that?
— Yeah, right…
— So, you would like to have a job where the more you work, the more you earn?
— Yes!
— And a job where you ensure your own stability?
— Yes!
— Thank you, Konstantin. The job I’m offering you is exactly that. A stable job with confidence in tomorrow, with fair pay that depends on how much you work. Of course, if you don’t do anything, you won’t get paid. That’s only fair, right?
— Yes, of course!
— You, Konstantin, mentioned the workday. Did I understand correctly that you are very concerned about having a work schedule that is convenient for you?
— That’s right!
— Would you like to choose your own working hours?
— Well…, that’s already in the realm of fantasy!
— Not at all. I’ll tell you about your work schedule later; I still want to clarify some things about office work.
— Let’s go!
— The job we want to offer you is an office position. We have a lot of office work involving filling out order forms, processing the orders themselves, checking payments, and supporting existing clients. Does this suit you?
— Yes!
— Of course, this will involve visiting clients and also conducting independent client searches, which we will teach you. Personal growth is important to you, right?
— Yes!
“The client is ready”! We witnessed a classic sales scenario: a person expressed a desire, the businessman clarified what the person actually needed, translated it into the candidate’s real needs, and offered a solution to their problems. This dialogue intentionally demonstrated several persuasion techniques. In practice, one or two arguments are usually enough. In this dialogue, Konstantin played the role of a puppet and responded to the recruiter’s questions in a straightforward and predictable manner. However, this was an example of working with a low-level candidate. The dialogue with a high-level candidate included more open-ended questions, and the candidate was carefully listened to by the recruiter.
Important note: Despite our desire to hire the right person, we must not show our greedy interest in them in any way. This could either scare them off or provoke arrogance in the candidate. Once you have “sold” yourself and your business to the candidate, meaning they are eager to work for you, make it clear that the choice is yours and that you will be the one making the decision, not them. How can this be done?
– Inform the candidate that the interview is over, that there are many candidates for the position, and that you will get in touch with them by the end of the week if a positive decision is made.
During the interview, ask questions that might make the candidate doubt their qualifications. For example, inquire whether the candidate speaks English and to what extent. (Of course, if we know that the candidate is likely not proficient in the language.)
– Ask the candidate how confident they are in themselves, whether they are afraid of challenges, and if they are willing to work overtime, etc.
A very useful tool in recruiting is the protocol for recruitment interviews – a form that you fill out by noting the candidates’ answers to the questions provided, and you ask the questions listed on this form. This way, you will be able to compare several candidates more objectively after their interviews, and you can effectively conduct the interview by using the protocol form as a guide.
Many of those reading this article will understand at this point that the ability to sell effectively is quite a specific skill, and you may need external resources to help you learn how to hire people and train your sales staff. By the way, this brings us to the second important role of a manager that we will discuss now: training.