Interview with Roman Petrov. Journal “Labor Law,” 04/2010
— So, Roman, you are on the pages… of my blog You talk a lot about employee motivation. However, does it exist?the ability to effectively motivate staff with a limited budget?.
— Of course, it’s possible. Especially since motivation and compensation are different things. I generally don’t tend to think that money and motivation are connected in any way.
— Oh, don’t people work for a salary? Then what motivates them to work?
— Tell me, when you’re interviewing me right now, are you thinking about how much you’re earning at this moment, or are you just doing your job because you enjoy it?
— Well, right now – I don’t think so. But if I weren’t getting paid at all, I wouldn’t be able to survive. I work to earn money.
— Exactly! You need money for its own sake, while your motivation to work well is separate. Would you write twice as many articles or conduct twice as many interviews if you were paid twice as much?
— Well, most likely not. I’m already giving it my all. Besides, if I weren’t working at full capacity, it would mean that my manager isn’t utilizing me fully as a resource. Listen, so that means…
— Exactly! A businessman, when thinking about motivation, should first ask himself the question: “Why do people work for me?”
— In what sense? Because the businessman pays them a salary!
— So what? Everyone pays.
“Because people can be divided into two types – those who are capable of doing their job, and those who are afraid?”
— Look for the best answer. It turns out people need a manager!
— Well, that’s exactly what I meant.
— Not in that sense. Could Sergey Bubka have broken the high jump record if he hadn’t had a coach? Could a motivation system based on prizes and bonuses have been developed for Sergey Bubka that would allow him to improve his performance on his own, without a coach?
— No, of course not. So, what is the role of a manager then?
— The same as the coach’s: to ensure growth and monitor results. Stories about how something can be set up to run “automatically” are nothing more than a popular myth that people just want to believe in. If a manager’s functions could be performed as a one-time task—”set it up and let it run”—then managers would be hired on a contract basis, like network installers or cleaners. However, managers are still an essential part of the company’s management process.
— But how is this related to motivation?
— Directly. There is Herzberg’s two-factor theory of motivation, which divides all “motivating” factors into two categories: 1. Factors that allow an employee to come to work (salary, working conditions, team atmosphere) and 2. Motivating factors (growth, responsibility, achievements, recognition). As you can see, there is no direct connection to money. Yes, growth includes career advancement and skill development, which leads to salary increases; responsibility means greater authority, which in our culture also correlates with salary growth; achievements are always rewarded with bonuses; and recognition leads to the employee becoming indispensable, which in turn motivates the manager to retain them. However, there is nothing here that would imply an inadequate increase in employee compensation.
— So how can we actually ensure what you’re talking about? Let’s assume that the employees already have a motivating factor and they earn more the more they do. For example, salespeople who receive commissions. Does that mean they already have motivation on their own?
— Nothing happens on its own. And a salesperson doesn’t grow if they’re not given new skills. They just keep doing the same thing, and sometimes they happen to do better and earn more by chance, and that’s it. But that’s not growth, not responsibility. Yes, it’s recognition. But in an environment where everyone understands that it’s just luck and not a systematic achievement, such “recognition” is better described by the words envy or jealousy, which doesn’t make the atmosphere in the team any healthier. In other words, we enter a zone of unhealthy working conditions that operate on a “yes/no” principle rather than a “better/worse” principle. People will leave you, and you won’t be able to understand why. After all, you have such a developed “motivation” system…
— How can we ensure growth for the salesperson?
— First and foremost, education.
— Trainings?
— Not just that. In fact, definitely not just that. Training is like a massage. But often we need to treat broken ribs. It’s much more valuable to establish a system for transferring skills from experienced employees to newcomers. We should also consider how a manager should pass on their skills to their subordinates. If we imagine an organization where everyone is growing, we end up with a kind of conveyor belt. People will leave you. The good ones will move up. The less capable will resign. This means that the best people need to have time to teach the newcomers.
This tool works very well when a newcomer joins the team, bringing fresh ideas, a new list of contacts, and a fresh perspective, including a mind that hasn’t yet developed specific skills. In this case, when the new salesperson meets with a client, there will be two people: the new salesperson and an experienced one. The new one will learn, while the experienced one will close the deal. Naturally, the reward system should include a commission calculation rule that divides the earned reward into shares that the salespeople have agreed upon among themselves. Additionally, this kind of cooperation among salespeople is beneficial when they divide the work. For example, one person builds a contact base and schedules meetings, while the other meets with clients and closes deals.
This is just an illustration. In this and other areas of activity, there are various tools whose applicability should be assessed before use. That’s exactly what I do in my free time.
— You also mentioned responsibility.
— Yes. This is also a very sensitive issue in many organizations. Understanding the role of a manager as a controller with a stick and a carrot, managers often resort to the stick because it’s cheaper. And if the stick is organized as a system of penalties, it becomes even more profitable. However, this approach is not effective.
— Can you show an example?
When choosing methods to influence an employee, it’s important to focus not so much on the intensity of the impact and its immediate effects, but rather on the consequences of such influence. If you publicly reprimand a subordinate for some action or mistake, the impact will certainly be more striking for them compared to a private conversation. Naturally, the employee will be determined not to repeat their mistake or oversight. However, not only will they become demotivated, leading to a decrease in productivity due to their feelings of oppression, but the “vaccination” against making mistakes may also result in new errors. The Soviet psychotherapist V. Levy referred to this effect as the “log paradox.” If we place a gymnastic beam on the ground, literally anyone can walk across it. However, if the same beam is suspended over a chasm, there will be far fewer brave souls willing to try. Moreover, if you decide to walk on such a beam, your chances of falling will increase the more you fear falling. Your muscles will be tense with fear, and your movements will be unnatural. You might even find yourself moving sideways along the beam, taking tiny steps. At the slightest hint of losing your balance, you will react excessively, and eventually, yes – you will fall. It turns out that keeping people in an atmosphere of fear of failure is not the best tactic. Additionally, if an employee is struggling to do their job, it may be that they are too afraid of failure. This can be addressed in many ways, but not by shouting “Do better!”
— What does responsibility have to do with it?
The control system should be designed not to catch employees out or accuse them of laziness or negligence, but rather to help them understand that oversight is essential for their growth. It’s like the relationship between Sergey Bubka and his coach. Sergey could have turned away and left his coach, but he continued to follow his grueling training regimen.
For specific examples, let’s consider salespeople. We need to create reporting formats for them and explain that their reports are primarily for the manager to assist them in their work. This assistance should be genuine. By using the sales reports, the manager can plan their schedule to attend the salesperson’s meetings with clients, conduct training sessions, organize experience-sharing sessions, and recognize successful and promising individuals in team meetings.
It’s important that the reporting formats always compare planned activities with actual results, allowing the salesperson to adjust their efforts for the next period. Additionally, the reports should contain only essential, critical information, so that during regular one-on-one meetings with the salesperson, the manager can understand how things are going and the details of their activities. This kind of reporting increases the salesperson’s accountability. The key is not to overdo it.
— In what sense?
— In terms of Supercontrol and superparticipation. Human thought is capable of inventing the most conceivable and inconceivable ways of deception and dishonest behavior. At the same time, in our technological 21st century, almost any voyeuristic dream can be realized. There are programs that monitor what employees do on their computers. There are solutions that allow for the recording of conversations and messages on corporate smartphones. Printouts of incoming and outgoing calls are available. You can install cameras and microphones at every workstation and possibly even in the café next to the office. You will be inundated with a stream of information that you may not even be able to process.
However, think about it: if you need information about one of your employees, it already gives you a reason to doubt their honesty.
As long as you trust your employee, there’s no point in keeping an eye on them. However, if you’ve lost that trust, then there’s no reason to keep them in your company. If you want to gather “evidence” of the employee’s disloyalty, you’re just wasting your time and energy. What if you don’t find anything? Does that mean they are loyal, or does it just mean they haven’t been caught?
On the other hand, it’s important to understand that people come to work and spend a significant part of their lives there. It’s impossible to work effectively without relaxing from time to time. When people join your company, they want to enjoy their work, not feel like they’re doing hard labor without ever looking up. Why should you prohibit them from flirting, occasionally browsing the internet, or playing a simple game for 15 minutes? Are you interested in results? Ask about the results. Give your employees responsibility for the outcome.
Always remember that the main motivation for work is in the mind. If a person wants to be lazy, they will be lazy; if they want to work, they will work. If they want to do something dishonest, they will do it.
Excessive control leads to a decrease in responsibility and initiative. When planning your subordinates’ time, it’s important to allocate a significant portion for work that doesn’t require reporting, but where results should be demonstrated, say, once a month or once a quarter. Independent work is a great generator of magical discoveries in business; it encourages people to think for themselves and is, at the same time, productive. People appreciate being trusted, and the return from such work can exceed all your expectations.
You should pay close attention to the administrative prohibitions you impose on your employees. If you cannot control the enforcement of these prohibitions, you need to think carefully about whether they should be implemented at all. In such cases, avoid issuing explicit bans; instead, simply do not encourage that behavior.
— Thank you, Roman, for the meaningful conversation. May I ask you for a favor?
— Yes. Please.
— The things you said during our interview may seem abstract to our readers. In particular, your statement that motivation cannot and should not be bought with money. How do you feel about demonstrating the practical applicability of your recommendations?
— With pleasure! Let your readers send you specific problems they would like to see solved, and I will demonstrate those solutions. Of course, all of this will be published by you, but we will change the names of people and companies. You could even introduce a section like this.
— Agreed!